In that month, the Messerschmitt Me 262 began to appear in combat. Me 262 vs P-51 Mustang: Europe 1944-45 (Duel) - amazon.com The maximum speed of a P51D was 437mph whilst the Spitfire was slightly faster at 448mph. Equation alignment in aligned environment not working properly. was doing around 350 mph, and the jet was doing 450. One Honduran Corsair shot down an El Salvadoran Mustang and another Corsair (both nations had Corsairs). The car is only 4 mph with like-for-like gearing than the brushed setup it previously had - but the difference is whereas the brushed motor got quite hot, the brushless motor was completely cold. [ref: Roscoe Brown, Candelaria], In terms of performance the P-51D will out perform the Fw 190 A series and the Earlier Bf 109 series easily when used correctly. The best answers are voted up and rise to the top, Not the answer you're looking for? The P-51 could only achieve speeds of up to 437 miles per hour. The German Luftwaffe Messerschmitt Me 262 Schwalbe (Swallow) was the first operational jet fighter and appeared in air combat towards the end of World War Two. 1st Lt. Earl R. Lane had extraordinary eyesight and scored his victory from a 2,000-yard distance in a deflection shot while in a tight, left-hand turn, using the relatively new K-14 lead-computing gunsight to lead far ahead of the jet. Connect and share knowledge within a single location that is structured and easy to search. in my studies on this crate for over 40 plus years. Seen here minus its Junkers Jumo jet engines and surrounded by it's 30mm Mk 108 cannon shells. P-51 Mustang vs Spitfire Main difference was size: Spitfire small, Mustang large. "Chuck" Yeager (double ace) : Returning from an escort mission, after get. Almost immediately, the pilot bailed out from about 24,500 feet. This is because the brushless setup is not working very hard compared to the brushed motor. This title explores the formidable Me 262 and P-51 Mustang, two planes which represented the state-of-the-art in terms of design, performance, and combat capability for their respective air forces. With a passion for aviation, as well as surfing and scanning the web, Rocco is in his element analyzing aircraft data and the differences and similarities between aircraft. German Me-262 pilots reported they could not outrun a P-51 in a dive planes that were apparently destroyed twice. Unknown to Schubert, Koehler's aircraft never reached England. [ref: P-51 shot down MiG-15 ?? Spitfire had same engine, but despite being smaller, was slower than Mustang. North American NA-73 (Prototyp fr die in Serie gehende P-51 Mustang) 25. Underground Messerschmitt Me 262 factory "Weingut I" [Vineyard I] Mhldorf am Inn, Germany (May 1945) PVT.Snafu. Clicking on "Accept" authorises all profiling cookies. the 357th FG and ace Capt Ernest C. Feeb Fiebelkorn of the 20th FG, highly decorated pilots in the Luftwaffe, finally took off to engage the enemy F-35 Lightning II vs F/A-18E Super Hornet, F-35 Lightning II vs F-16E Fighting Falcon BLOCK 60. Reported by some sources to have lost his life that day, Ambs actually walked away from the experience and lived a long life (he would live to see history buffs build and fly an Me 262 replica in a new century), but he never fought again. Piaggio P.111: 18. I remember interviewing Roscoe Brown for a chapter I was writing about Benjamin Davis, Jr.for my book FIRST COMMAND. However, as with other turbojet engines at the time, the Me 262's engines did not provide sufficient thrust at low air speeds and throttle response was slow, meaning in certain circumstances such as takeoff and landing, the aircraft became a vulnerable target. Is there a table somewhere that lists the air-to-air Me 262 kills by Allied combat aircraft? I have found twelve pairs of duplicate Werknummers, i.e. The P-51, on the other hand, is a more traditional design. The Schwalbe (German: " Swallow ") fighter version of the Messerschmitt Me 262 was the first operational jet-powered fighter aircraft, with the first test unit having been formed on 19 April, 1944 as documented in the Operational History section of the Wiki article cited. All data presented is for entertainment purposes and should not be used operationally. All of a sudden at nine oclock I saw these streaks. 13:12. So 158 Me262's were shot down in the air by fighters, and of these between 60 and 74 % were P-51 Mustangs. Fair enough, I stand corrected. Each fuel drop tank is jettisoned, As the skies they try to cleanse. The fight against the Third Reich ended on May 8, 1945, but the fight for equality lasted longer. Shopping Cart: 0 item(s) / $0 . Additionally Uffz. Learn how your comment data is processed. The P-51 and the Me 262 are significant aircraft that played essential roles in WWII. Feb 1, 2010 Thread starter #7 Zniperguy114 Airman 67 0 When he arrived on the scene the aircraft had dispersed, so he duly joined up with some other Flying Fortresses that were lacking adequate escort. A piece of the plane, either the canopy or one of the jet orifices, flew off. Twin Mustang was ~80MPH faster, its long range would've allowed it to escort B-29 Superfortress bombers. #KB109: Schumacher Mission FT Brushless swap and test Which Allied aircraft scored the most air-to-air kills against the Me P-51 Mustang vs. Messerschmitt Me-262 - Which WWII fighter was better The P-51 Mustang and the Messerschmitt Me-262 were two of the most advanced fighters to see air combat in World War II. Its elliptical wings made Spitfire beautiful and turn more tightly. The transfer of data can only take place anonymously and with prior consent. As the jets began to move across How did a top Soviet ace shoot down American planes during WWII? but North American Aviation's Edgar Schmued Note that he wearing a promotional hat for the movie Red Tails which incorporated his story. he shot down a Soviet MIG jet. Red Tails: P-51 Mustang vs Messerschmitt Me 262 Davo De Gondolin 21.5K subscribers Subscribe 81K Share 9.9M views 8 years ago Combate Areo entre los Red Tails y la Luftwaffe Pelicula: Red Tails. I confirm that I have read, consent and agree to The Aviation Geek Club Privacy Policy. P-51s and other prop fighters could easily outmaneuver Me-262s. Early Spitfire had superb maneuverability and graceful handling. The Messerschmitt Me 262 Schwalbe ("Swallow") was a German aircraft, the world's first operational jet-powered fighter . 1x Packard (Rolls Royce) V-1650-7 Merlin. their respective air forces. the east-west runway and the taxiing ship got into position for a formation swooped down. Amazing facts about Messerschmitt Me262; The World's First Operational The Aviation Geek Club and The Aviation Geek Club logo are Dario Leone's registered marks. I know I tend to sometimes have leading questions and I would not criticize someone for elaborating on it. Place of processing: Ireland , The First Engagement Between a P-51 and an Me 262 and the Death of Luftwaffe Ace Walter Nowotny, I confirm that I have read, consent and agree to The Aviation Geek Club. This title explores the formidable Me 262 and P-51 Mustang, two planes which represented the state-of-the-art in terms of design, performance, and combat capability for their respective air forces.Arguably two of the finest fighters built during the course of World War II, the Me 262 and P-51 Mustang heralded new dawns in aircraft performance. 1:21. Yeager was one of four double aces, taking down the ME-262 as it landed perhaps not "sporting," he acknowledged, but one sure-fire way to drop the revolutionary jet. but it had important innovations from which it excelled. First, it was a capable fighter plane, able to engage in aerial combat with enemy aircraft and support Allied bombers. ", f-106deltadart.com: I don't have a resource to cite, but I recall a video interview with a then-elderly Mustang pilot who described the speed of ME262 climb and said he shot one down by out turning it and "setting up a line of 50 cal" for it to fly into. Almost immediately, the pilot bailed out from about 24,500 feet. out. The Messerschmitt Me-262 Was the Harbinger of a New Era in - HistoryNet I did not see the pilot bail Asking for help, clarification, or responding to other answers. Bf-109 vs P-47 bf-109. So doesn't seem fair to put the best, top of the line piston fighter agiast the first sucessful jet one? Two seconds later, I saw another piece hit close to the first piece. Around 1,200 Me-262's were destroyed, by strafing, bombing etc etc.. North American P-51 Mustang Messerschmitt Bf 109 Ceiling (m) 12,771 11,125 RATE-OF-CLIMB 3,475 ft/min [Diff.+175 feet] RATE-OF-CLIMB 3,300 ft/min [Diff.-175 feet] North American P-51 Mustang Messerschmitt Bf 109 RoC (ft) 3,475 3,300 ARMAMENT Dependent upon model, includes any of the following: The problem was getting home. So, which one is better? Piper PA-48 Enforcer. 1:12. How good was the ME-262 really? : r/AskHistorians - reddit P-51 vs Me-262 - Comparison - BVR - Dogfight so Mustang would've been blown to bits! 4 x 20mm long-barrel Hispano-Suiza cannons in wings. After seven Tempests were lost to flak at Hopsten in a week, the "Rat Scramble" was discontinued. Did the United States taxpayer fund the development of China's backbone fighter plane? Set your Throttles to Full AB and Join The Aviation Geek Club! Follow. Several things make the Me 262 better than the P-51. 1,000ft. Wrote Brown in his after-action report: I pulled up at him in a fifteen degree climb and fired three long bursts at him from 2,000 feet at eight oclock to him. 3x ME 262s were shot down; 1x ME 262 was destroyed by the gunners on US bombers, 2x ME 262s were shot down by P-51 fighters of the 339th Fighter Group.Ofw. The only logical option for the German would be to play to his strengths.climb out at speed and leave the Mustang behind, meaning no victory for either side. Answer (1 of 8): Here are two tangles between P-51's and ME262's, which typify such engagements. One of Browns fellow airmen, Capt. The famous P-51 Mustang served many purposes during World War II and beyond. wasn't surpassed until advent of jet fighters like F-86 and MiG-15. Is there a written history on the Sonderkommando Elbe? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pierre_Clostermann. Reich airspace, and back, for well over 1,000 miles. 1Lt ", LA Times: May 2003, 03:18 PM: Message edited by: PzJgr ], [ 07. each of whom have been credited with a shared kill. The Messerschmitt Me-262 was the first jet fighter to enter operational service. Compared with Allied fighters of its day, including the British jet-powered Gloster Meteor, it was much faster and . The German response was the construction of a "flak lane" of over 150 emplacements of the 20 mm Flakvierling quadruple autocannon batteries at Rheine-Hopsten to protect the approaches. but between these two planes the P-51s were ordered to make tight turns that the Me-262s could not do, I think. P-38 Lightning Thank you for your support! Trials of P-51 proved it kept its speed during a dive because of its low drag REAL Footage Of Red Tails Taking Down Me 262s - World War Wings The P-51 achieved greatness at high altitude, where it was at maximum efficiency, while the Bf-109G was good at lower altitudes. Up to 1,000 lbs (454kg) of bombs, rockets or fuel droptanks. only P-51 Mustang fighter pilot to shoot down a MiG 15. v ABSTRACT The purposes of this study were to trace the evolution of the North American P-51 Mustang as an escort fighter in World War Two and to enumerate the reasons why it played . I saw flames burst from the jet orifices of the enemy aircraft. (Air Force af.mil)] See also this old Google Groups thread, probably back from Usenet times: https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/rec.aviation.military/L7m7gZlpnKQ. Rogers achieved a rare MiG-15 jet U.S. Air Force photo. Library of Congress photo. For a few moments he monitored their progress: The lead ship was in take-off position on Star Citizen Consolidated Outland Mustang 2948. This site uses Akismet to reduce spam. The A-4a and A-5a were both reconnaissance versions. To complement this, I will focus on contemporaries that saw action during Korea. Also Read: North American F-82 Twin Mustang. Not really, the P-51D Mustang was certainly a good fighter. I was still indicating about 400mph and I had Main difference was size: Spitfire small, Mustang large. By clicking on "Customise" you can select which profiling cookies to activate. Kelly Johnson drew and considered a twin-fuselage design similar to Twin Mustang, It may not display this or other websites correctly. The waist guns (which my father was assigned to before he was shot down) were in open windows. This was probably Leutnant Koberts As the formation passed over Achmer, Drew spotted two Me 262s on the airfield. firing from about 400 yards, with 30 degrees deflection. US F-51 pilots trained against US jets and mentioned that scoring a hit on a MiG-15 would be very difficult: The six .50-caliber M2 machine guns of Brown's P-51 had torn the German jet fighter apart. BAT OUT OF HELL: The Me-163 Komet, by Don Hollway During the war, the P-51 established a reputation as a fierce air-to-air combat fighter and as an aircraft capable of blasting ships, trains, and enemy targets in Western Europe. The P-47 Thunderbolt? Forced to defend himself, he shot down two P-51 Mustang fighters. Somersault-while-firing trick was actually done by Richard Candelaria of another USAAF squadron to his death. 2023 Defense Media Network. FDCSYP Military Drills Poster P 51 Mustang Vs Messerschmitt Me 262 Fighter 11 Canvas Poster Wall Art Decor Print Picture Paintings for Living Room Bedroom Decoration 1624inch(4060cm) Brand: FDCSYP. This is due to the tremendous speed of the enemy aircraft.. that first appeared in mid-1930s, first of which was Me-109. Of actual air-to-air kills of Me 262s (not those claimed during takeoff or landing), which Allied aircraft scored the most Me 262 kills? kill while flying in his piston-engine F-51D Mustang named Buckeye In some cases both USAAF & RAF claim the same Me262, and in one case it is not clear which type of aircraft the squadron (RAF 403) was using, hence the fractions. I Gruppe of KG51 was the first fighter bomber unit equipped with the Me 262 in autumn of 1944. He was one of almost a thousand African-American fliers known as the Tuskegee Airmen who overcame discrimination, mastered the challenge of piloting a combat aircraft, and served their country by doing battle in skies high over the Third Reich. Welcome to WWII Forums! Browse more videos. Personal Information processed: Usage Data; Tracker, Aviation History / Military Aviation / Warbirds, Dario Leone and The Aviation Geek Club, 2016. wrong, since Schmued had idea in 1940 before those were designed. Today, it remains a beloved plane among aviation enthusiasts and war history buffs. while later Nowotnys crackling voice was heard over the radio. Some might argue that it was due to a desire for technological superiority or a need for faster aircraft. The Messerschmitt M . [ref: Ziegler, McLaren]. It is the only rocket-powered fighter aircraft ever to have been . P-51 Mustang compared to other airplanes - Jim Brooks Each Mustang out classed for speed, By the 262's Jumo 004 jet engine. The Me 262, on the other hand, was designed as a multi-role aircraft and could be used for various tasks such as air combat, ground attack, and even intercepting flying bombs. You must log in or register to reply here. Worse was to come on the afternoon of Nov. defensive tactics were applied, with very precise timing of each Google Analytics is a web analytics service provided by Google Ireland Limited ("Google"). He pushed his Me 262 into a steep left bank to dive toward the American fighter. But there were actual air-to-air 262 kills: Major Walter Nowotny was assigned as commander [of Erprobungskommando 262 formed at Lechfeld just south of Augsburg, the first operational 262 unit] after the death of Thierfelder in July 1944, and the unit redesignated Kommando Nowotny. November 1940: de Havilland DH.98 Mosquito (Prototyp) Martin B-26 Marauder (40-1361) 29. The Me 262 - HotCars Too fast to catch for the escorting Allied fighters, the Me 262s were almost impossible to head off. As a result, Me 262 pilots were relatively safe from the Allied fighters, as long as they did not allow themselves to get drawn into low-speed turning contests and saved their maneuvering for higher speeds. He hit the highest kill ratio | Aircraft of World War II - WW2Aircraft.net Forums The P-51 could only achieve speeds of up to 437 miles per hour. [ref: koreanwar.org] Furthermore, if flown to 13:12. The P-51 would have an easier time destroying the much less maneuverable jet since the Mustang could cut every turn the Me-262 tried to make. In order to attack the jets in the air, the P-51 needed to dive in order to be able to close on the enemy jets when they attacked the bombers. 9 years ago. Force Service in 1950 at the onset of the Korean Conflict. The first jet kill by a Mustang was on October 7, 1944, when Lt. Urban L. Dreq of the 361st Fighter Group shot down two Me 262s while they were taking off from their base. 2nd Lt. Charles V. Brantley became the second 332nd pilot to engage an Me 262. In movie Red Tails, a P-51 firing head-on against a Me-262 . The P51s iconic design features sleek lines and a distinctive shark mouth painted on the nose, making it truly stand out among its contemporaries. 4 x 30mm MK 108 Cannons. However, this event was tempered by the loss of three more jets to Mustangs on November 4. or was based on Historically, why did the US station their nuclear weapons in Germany for delivery through German pilots? November 1940 . Footage courtesy of Bill Jaskelainen, Webmaster of 339th Fighter Group Website http://www.339thfg.com/On March 20th, 1945, 451 bombers and 355 fighters of the 8th Air Force were sent to bomb the shipyard, dock facilities and an oil refinery in Hamburg. P-51 Mustang Replica With Big-Block Chevy Power - Dailymotion Wartime Me 262 Pilot Said He Flew Faster Than Sound On March 24, 1945, the Tuskegee Airmen flew their longest mission of the war, escorting heavy bombers to Berlin (which was farther from their base in Italy than from American airfields in England). He is the The Allies soon learned to attack the 262s when they were the most vulnerable, and most 262 kills by Allied aircraft were during takeoff or landing, or on the ground (where many of them sat, due to lack of fuel and qualified pilots towards the end of the war). I caught up with for take-off, but at that moment the P-51D of 361st FG pilot 1Lt Urban L. Drew Red Tails: P-51 Mustang vs Messerschmitt Me 262 - YouTube Also the RAF Thunderbolts never suffered an air to air loss, but fighter oppositoin was limited. Its one disadvantage -- its climb-rate wasn't good -- was solved in light-weight P-51H. Report. the two planes,' said Jim Cook, master crew chief at the Pacific I am not sure but I believe the P-51 had a 9:1 kill ratio and if you include ground kills it is 11:1. Still, after a war in which critical work was performed by American factory workers who were black and white, male and female, all mingled together on the factory floor, there was no turning back. Bf-109 vs P-38 a6m-zero. P-51 Mustang vs Messerschmitt Me 262: WE FOUGHT THE ARYAN RACES to the death..WE ARE BRAVE AND STRONG.and if THEY show up . Making statements based on opinion; back them up with references or personal experience. Luftwaffe fighter arms nemesis. [emphasis added]. Spitfire had same engine, but despite being smaller, was slower than Mustang. because its jet engines provided far less acceleration than a propeller Only veteran or lucky German pilots could survive in a Me-109. If a Me-262 ever slowed down, it became vulnerable, Its a matchup that aviation enthusiasts have debated for years. Oberfahnrich Russel. since he drew the first drawing of the Twin Mustang with which he was awarded a US patent Zero could out-turn P-51 (and everything else). Messerschmitt Me 262, WerkNr. La Mustang, une icne mcanique. The Messerschmitt Me 262 was the world's first fully operational turbojet fighter and saw service in the later years of World War Two. The Me 262 and P-51 Mustang represented the MiGs, and they were so much faster. (A) 8 x 7.7mm Browning machine guns in wings. We directly support the repository at WW2.ORG, and several other worthwhile projects that add to the historical record. The Facebook Like button and social widgets are used to interact with the Facebook social networkand are provided byFacebook Ireland Ltd. 'He Len Krenzler (actionart.ca) The Mustang had a maximum speed of 437 mph while the Me 262 could fly at a maximum of . To the untrained eye, both the P-51 Mustang and the Me 262 may look like WWII-era fighter planes. (Air Force af.mil), P-51 shot down MiG-15 ?? Project P.1065. The shortage of drop tanks at Ramitelli forced the maintainers to get creative. In a February 5 interview, Dr. Roscoe Brown, 91, was remembering a pivotal battle as a P-51 Mustang fighter pilot in World War II. Not sure about the actual numbers, but I read Pierre Clostermann's Big Show and the RAF had a specific tactic of using Tempests to catch ME262s returning to base. Let's find out! During March, Me 262 fighter units delivered large scale attacks on Allied bomber formations. Roscoe Brown left the military for pursuits in the academic world but remains active in veterans affairs and civil rights. I then pulled up and circled over the spot where he went down. WW II has got to be the F6F as has been previously stated. For example: the great speed advantage of the Messerschmitt Me 262-The Messerschmitt 262 Schwalbe was the world's first operational jet fighter aircraft. It is believed that this is the first Jet propelled aircraft to be destroyed by the RAF or RCAF fighters. A design is a team effort, still, Schmued deserves much credit, We turned into this attack, but due to the tremendous speed of the enemy aircraft, I was unable to get my guns on him. via Asisbiz This would allow pilots such as Franz Schall to shoot down a score of Allied aircraft, and Schall himself shot down 17 enemy fighters including 10 P-51s. (pushing throttle on a Merlin V-12 engine shoved pilots back into their seats). As I glanced back I saw a gigantic over 500 alone are accredited to JG 7 but that is too high. I fired three short bursts and saw the plane emitting smoke. P-51 vs Bf-109 P-51 vs Bf-109 Airplanes armament and equipment 4 x 20mm long-barrel Hispano-Suiza cannons in wings, 2 x 12.7mm machine guns in nose 4 x 12.7mm machine guns in wingsP-51D: 6 x .50 cal machine guns in wings Up to 1,000 lbs (454kg) of bombs, rockets or fuel droptanks. However Mehn was KIA this day, where as the pilot here bailed out, and there is nothing written to indicate Mehn attempted to bail out.It is ultimately unknown to me who the ME 262 in this clip belonged to. Instead of going directly after them, we went away from them and then turned into their blind spots.. 2 x 20mm Cannons (in addition to existing 4 x 30mm cannons) 24 x Air-to-Air Unguided High-Explosive Rockets. OPTIONAL: External Bombload of up to 1,200lbs. Although innovative in 1935, by 1943, Me-109 was out-classed. By giving your consent, the data will be sent anonymously, thus protecting your privacy. This forum contains affiliate links to products on Amazon and eBay. My way being that the P-51 is probaly in the top five piston fighter aircraft in history, and yes, that is also an opinion, But the Me 262 is the first, truely sucessful jet ever. [ref: Ziegler for 515MPH]. The first successful flight of a jet Me-262 occurred on the 18th of July, 1942. Ah, we might as well let bygones be bygones and appreciate their beauty as historical relics. Personal Data collected: NonePlace of processing: Ireland Privacy PolicyOpt Out. The P-51 Mustang or the Me 262 Schwalbe? North American P-51 Mustang - Wikipedia explosion, and a sheet of red-orange flame shot out over an area of about Actually, lack of trained pilots and fuel was more of a problem than airworthy Me-262s. April 1941: Messerschmitt Me 262 V1 Mai 1941: Horten H IV Kawasaki Ki-45 Toryu Kokusai Ki-76 Tairow Ta-3: 6. Which one of the two, the P-51 Mustang or the BF 109, did win - Quora Lastly, the Me 262 had a bit of a wildcard role it was tested as a potential interceptor for Americas flying bombs (such as the V1) and even a makeshift transport aircraft. Messerschmitt Bf 109: Country: Germany: Germany: Type of aircraft: Fighter: MR Fighter: First Flight: 1939: 1935: Introduction: 1941: 1937: Crew: 1: 1: Number built: 20000: . German pilots were astounded to see a P-47 continue flying after firing all their ammunition at one. Messerschmitt Me 262 - Wikipedia aircraft, which blew up just as it lifted off the ground. ), This is not an answer but just a repeat of the same point made in the question: ", @PieterGeerkens So, as soon as an OP mentions a possible answer it is off limit to everyone then? Try the F-15 Eagle. A P-51 of 359th FG (Lt. Col. Murphy) was barely able to pursue it and hit it from 1,000 yards. Whether youre talking about aesthetics or pure aerial prowess, its easy to see why the P51 Mustang will continue to soar through the skies for years. Finally, the P51 was also used for reconnaissance missions, gathering intelligence through photography and radio communication. Captured on a USAAF P-51 Mustang gun camera - A Luftwaffe Me 262A being shot down (the pilot has already bailed out) in 1945 (Photo Source: Wikipedia - Impact Magazine, a . On the 24th of that month, Brown became one of three members of the 332nd Fighter Group to be credited with shooting down a Messerschmitt Me 262 jet fighter. May 2003, 02:41 PM: Message edited by: CrazyD ], [ 07. ME 262 vs. P-51 | WWII Forums Its construction was very sturdy, having armored or redundant control links. - https://bit.ly/3k0SXI2Follow me on social media for updates! At low-altitude, FW-190 nearly matched P-51. Bf-109 vs Zero degrees deflection at 300 yards and my bullets were just hitting the tail There were four [ref: History Channel's "Dogfights"] Mustangs encountered and defeated every German aircraft, including the smooth, twin-jet Messerschmitt 262s. How would the Messerschmitt Me 262 fare against Korean War era - Quora But theres one area where the P-51 shines: range.
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