Peter Biello: This is the exchange on an HD PR fine Peter Biello and today we're talking with folks who can tell us about the mysterious elusive mountain line and whether or not it is actually here in New Hampshire. Patrick Tate: Martin Like what about Panther Panther saying animals same animal and like a bit of trivia Guinness Book of World Records says the animal with the most names is in English alone they're supposedly 40 names for Mount lion. Caller: Yeah I hadn't experienced blastoff fall so this was around September and I was driving from Webster into Concord on Horse Hill Road and anybody in the area would know I was right near the Red Barn and all of a sudden this animal jumps out of the woods and it bounded across the road in about two two giant leaps and stopped in the field just on the other side. There's no logic for why they'd be listed as an endangered species. PublishedNovember 16, 2018 at 6:16 AM EST. Patrick Tate: It became a very interesting investigation over time because it started becoming. Peter Biello: What about the idea of tourism like us leaving aside the fact that it is not on the Endangered Species Act is it. You could trace that was this same cat from point to point to point. 44-N Links. We rely on readers like you to support the local, national, and international coverage on this website. So one thing I'll add. Chapter X, Predators, Panther (Mountain Lion) From History of NH Game and Furbearers by Helenette Silver, Research Clerk, NH Fish and Game Dept. If you have them email exchange at an HP board or give us a call to tell us your story. So that's the specimen that you find going long distances. My wife and I saw a mountain lion. Gotcha, so the Deep State is suppressing mountain lion news in order to prop up New Hampshire tourism? Rick van de Poll: Oh yeah absolutely. Tonight, Sean McDonald investigates,. Which which I think Pat and I have both experienced. There'd be there'd be all sorts of you know basically a lot of hassle required if that were to happen. Reviewing the evidence, the U.S. If you missed part of today's program listen to the exchange. I tracked cats and all the western states. No that's a little bit outside the range. I mean I that said I've lived out west for nine years. I'm Peter Biello. So. Sam Evans-Brown: Well first I want to sort of explain why what the theory is but then also throw a bit of cold water on it because I don't think there's much much logic behind it but essentially is that if fish and game were to acknowledge that there was a population of Mount lions in the state there's a chance that something like a listing under the federal Endangered Species Act might happen and then there'd be you know some they'd have to put a plan in place to protect the species there'd be you know restrictions put on development. And the second question is this a behavior mountain lions exhibit. Right. The current estimate is 2,000 - 2,700 throughout Arizona. Peter Biello: Well Mike thanks very much for sharing your story. So I think in that story there's there's something for the believers and the nonbelievers and I and you know Mark L. Brock is who is a gentleman with the cougar Network told me this story is evidence that that if they were here we would know about it. Caller: Oh hi. And you know it's rather interesting because certainly there are those you as a case of mistaken identity or they wanted to see something that perhaps they actually didn't. Having not found any evidence is not the same as saying there are no mountain lions, its the same as saying we dont know. They sent it already. The nonbelievers are going to say Show us your evidence and show us prove this to us. BUT THAT SAID, Id love to be proven wrong. He shifted gears in 2016 and began producing Outside/In, a podcast and radio show about the natural world and how we use it. His work has won him several awards, including two regional Edward R. Murrow awards, one national Murrow, and the Overseas Press Club of America's award for best environmental reporting in any medium. Administrative Links. Sam Evans-Brown: One in fact Helena silver in that sort of tome that Rick van de Poll read from at the beginning is she. Peter Biello: This is NHK PR Good morning and HP are summer car raffle is back and now's the time to get your early bird tickets. But if you were to get Western dispersing mountain lions just would just sort of expanding into New Hampshire. 235 or nhandy@ledgertranscript.com. The book MAMMAL TRACKS & SIGN by Mark Elbroch has pictures of mountain lion scat found at a multiple beaver kill. Patrick Tate: My line being a large predator a cat watch ambush his prey animal that hasn't been. I just stood there just a second and I came to a complete stop and then I ran away. But if people are still seeing mountain lions, why is the state and federal government seeking to COVER IT UP!? Rick van de Poll: 80 90. So I hate the idea that there's some sort of upward you know downward pressure from the bosses saying Don't you know don't tell about the mountain lions because it'll scare away the tourists. Thank you very much for that story really appreciate it. Sam Evans-Brown: Certainly that is a thing I've heard but again you have to think of the incentives involved here. What gets confusing is when you have a large adult animal and a smaller juvenile animal of a different species you can now step start beginning talking about overlapping body weights and sizes. So I learned about what Rick just reported through a heart of heart of New Hampshire a letter and. As far as I could tell there was a positive DNA sequence coming from the scat sample Patrick. Patrick Tate: So the individuals can say that but for an agency that's based on science and what not to to go off with no evidence and then get into that giant debate and all these other issues and put credibility at risk I don't think that would be a great path to take. The number 1 800 8 9 2 6 4 7 7 so promised a discussion about conspiracy theories. Its impossible to say, but I think the odds are pretty good that some of these sightings are legit. Thanks very much. No doubt in my mind it was. Residents believe cougars still roam New Hampshire's forests. She quotes a biologist in Lyme New Hampshire who who is keeping two mountain lions himself so in the not too distant past in the early nineteen hundreds it was perhaps more common and still in Maine. Its distinctive featurethe one that sets it apart from other North American wild catsis its tail, which is thick and often as long as its body. A monthly donation of $5 makes a real difference. Caller: I have yeah. John is calling from Bennington. Tim Yeah. It's got a a smudge of black and bobcats and links just don't have that we don't have any other cards. Peter Biello: Wow. Me Im willing to believe its possible that there are some out there. The females disperse a shorter range and once they find a vacant home range they stay in that location and live there. Caller: Absolutely. N.H. Peter Biello: We mentioned that the eastern cougar and the Western cougar are they were separate eastern cougar believed to be extinct. So for those reasons I don't believe the standards are too high the amount of game cameras out on the landscape to record images department alone through contracts had over 150 throughout the state biologists go through various deer yards throughout the year. Long before NASA was asked to put a man on the moon one engineer had already figured out how to get there. Nicholas Handy can be reached at 924-7172 ext. Someone's got to see one they're very secretive. But you won't find evidence of their existence in paw prints in the snow or a deer carcass in a tree. We'd be inundated with scouts in the past when newspaper articles have been written about DNA and scouts. And it was unmistakable. What kind of animal is that. Which brings us to the next question, what are the odds that some of these reported sightings (which, when I posted about this on twitter, I immediately started to get as well) are actually people seeing a mountain lion? No I saw a camel. Current conditions in New Hampshire would support a mountain lion, according to Tate, as forests have returned, allowing for prey species to become more prevalent. And those are not the same things. Wed love to be part of the first verified sighting. So this whole illegal pet trade black market pro trade thing does does exist in a situation like that can happen. Do you get a lot of these these these things that end up being hoaxes. Thank you very much for being here. You can see two of them at Squam Lakes Natural Science Center in Holderness NH. Using DNA and physical evidence, state environmental officials said they determined that the animal. I'm sorry go ahead you're on the air. OK. Monday, December 5th: Mountain Lions in New Hampshire? OK. Rick van de Poll: Rick and I would add that if a mountain lion male takes up residence and successfully finds a female as pets there's gonna be a lot more evidence there will be like deer carcasses up in trees and territorial marking and claw marks and tracks and it you know dispersal is gonna be very tough to see or observed but residential parrots a totally different story. Caller: It had just left that field and was out. It traveled all the way from from you know Minnesota to New York without being so seen Patrick take. And sometimes I've seen pictures of those where it's the question is What is that is that a bobcat. But on the other side of that coin there is this sense that there have been so many sightings locally and you guys Patrick you might recall the name the Wyndham McCracken she kind of turned herself into a local authority off authorities the right word but she was very dedicated to this. SUE Morse naturalist and science director for the organization keeping track. So we're fixated on natural but there's other possibilities. New Hampshire Public Radio | Like why would you want one wildlife. So I certainly can't dispute anything that they said there's no evidence for me to go by to verify or say what my thoughts are on the situation. So what a neat experience. Peter Biello: We at this e-mailed comment from Michael. Patrick Tate: I've from all the situations I've read and learned about wildlife. So try to take photographs if you see something like this. Women control our lives. I mean there was this one lady I remember and tough tomorrow. Hunting is legal, but closely regulated by the state. You know perhaps poke around where you saw it and see if you can find a track. Almost all species disperse greater distances than females. We did a short segment about mountain lion sightings earlier this year and and after which I was sent a photo and also a video recording that was mostly just audio because it was so dark the photo just a quick reverse Google image search you can put images online and see where else where else they've been posted revealed that the photo had been taking out taken out in Wyoming and has been used you know hundreds of times to claim and the person who sent it to me said it had been taken New Hampshire. Thank you very much for listening. And to anyone listening I would just say you know fishing game who wants proof right. To date, the Department has not received any verifiable evidence (photographic or DNA)of mountain lions existing in New Hampshire. And why would they what. Peter Biello: Well hey Rob. So maybe a good pet for you but not for your neighbor if you just stop by unannounced. Have you heard stories do you have questions about the mountain line. And I just said I saw I saw they from behind the shoulder all the way past the long tail. Less successful males roam further. But you won't find evidence of their existence in paw prints in the snow or a deer carcass in a tree. So yeah as far as wildlife species that put deer and trees know there aren't any others that I know of that put deer in trees just just humans might be responsible for that. They used to roam the entire continent, but have become extinct in most US states. You've got you've got biologists right who are trying to make their make their way in the world make a career if you are the biologists who confirmed a sighting of mountain lions in the state that would be very good for you like you would be all over the news. So what counts as verifiable evidence? John you're on the air. I saw that had this giant the bobcat had this giant sweeping which is John Bobcat don't have big sweeping tails. Have a photo. So here in New Hampshire when a person turns in something that the Department believes is possible mountain lion and believes it should be investigated further. It's completely possible that it may have spent time in New Hampshire and went undetected but had it stayed in the area ultimately it would have been detected over time. There are corollaries in other states. The trouble with accepting every reported sighting as a confirmed mountain lion is that there are so many mistaken identifications. I was a Bobcat we saw it and I have a picture of it. They kill big animals. It's not a skinny rope like tail like a housecat. Sam Evans-Brown has been working for New Hampshire Public Radio since 2010, when he began as a freelancer. Deer Bear Moose Grey Wolf Coyote Foxes Fisher Mountain Lion NH Wildlife History. Tate said that while a mountain lion sighting in New Hampshire isn't likely, it's not impossible. Sam Evans-Brown: Well this might be a good moment to talk about hoaxes. It's not an emerging endangered species no work no there are there are populations in specific states so the Florida panther is is an endangered species that sub population is in fact listed under the Endangered Species Act. That's pretty elaborate. Patrick Tate: Yes. So do they. NHFG Wildlife Biologist Patrick Tate identifies this cat as a bobcat. I can't. We we hear that there is allegedly a government conspiracy to deny the existence of mountain lions here in New Hampshire so I guess a local government conspiracy. Just one quick point I think I think when we we talk about these conspiracy theories the real story is that fish and game is an agency that that is short on budget and staff. Fish and Wildlife Service decided all of the cougars, pumas, and mountain lions in the country are actually the same species, and that species hasnt had a breeding population anywhere near the Northeast for at least 70 years. Peter Biello: There have been several alleged sightings of mountain lions in New Hampshire recently. If you believe you have seen a mountain lion and want to report it to NH Fish and Game, please contact the Wildlife Division at (603) 271-2461 or wildlife@wildlife.nh.gov to request an observation report form. Okay. 8 9 2 6 4 7 7. Let's talk to Bob in Laconia Bob. So there is definitely no downward pressure by anyone. Thanks for a great thanks. Caller: Well I think Patrick I recognized your name. Residents from Bedford to Berlin have been reporting sightings for years. I came to a stop and it was and I've seen a lot of bobcats in my time and I just came to a stop it was just sort of confused about what I was seeing. They're the generalists that made it through both the arrival of the Clovis people with their with their spears and then the Europeans with their guns. So Pat you field a lot of calls about people seeing or reportedly seeing mountain lions. Well let's talk a little bit about that. Caller: And the more I thought about it the color of it it was definitely not a bobcat. Let us know your story and share your photos! Sam Evans-Brown: But I mean the video I had been sent was you know a recording of a animal growling but it was in slow motion and when I asked the person why is this in slow motion the denied that it was so there's a lot of weird stuff that happens in regards to people claiming they've seen they've seen these things. There's just one subspecies of North American mountain lion. And they were using all the habitat. Now again I don't know that there's anything to that. Through DNA they approximate area in the United States or North America where I was born. Theres tracks everywhere. Peter Biello: I did mention four feet nose to tail would be kind of small for a mountain lion. For all the men out there that don't realize it. Let's go now to to Kyle in Keene I believe Kyle is this Kyle Jarvis from the Keene Sentinel a former reporter and former reporter. We'll hear more about the mountain lions impact and the role it plays in the ecosystem. It's unfortunate that that kind of thing happens as often as it does. Somewhere the way they travel the things they do they're going to leave evidence. Mountain lions can be found throughout Arizona, and data suggests the populations are not only stable, but growing. So it is possible to see male Mountain lions roam into the northeast - there was one hit by a car in CT a number of years back - but we don't have a breeding population of Mountain lions in New England. No evidence and other states where Mountain lights have turned up. So I've been convinced the whole time that I saw a big cougar plume or whatever you want to call it standing there in the road in Greenfield. I mean it wasn't your idea. Do cougars live in New England? for some excitement. Thank you. The exchange is a production of New Hampshire Public Radio. Each person had their own copy and now it was identify the trees the species of tree matched. Peter Biello: Hmm. Patrick Tate: I've had hunters hang deer carcasses forbidding wildlife entries. Sam Evans Brown. Tell us your story. But no proof was offered. Verifiable pictures recorded by the observing person or a trail camera. But my experience was that the majority of these accounts could not be taken lightly. and territorial animals are much more inclined to create a problem with passer bys than dispersing animals in fact I'd be totally shocked if a dispersal would encounter with a human purposefully unless they had already had some type of training to do so. And what was really remarkable about the whole thing was I was maybe a half mile down on all buildings. How far were you from this cat. But you won't find evidence of their existence in paw prints in the snow or a deer carcass in a tree. Peter Biello: Well John thanks very much for the story really appreciate it. Peter Biello: So a little bit of nostalgia maybe for it for a better world embodied in the mountain lion. WMUR NH Chronicle Mountain Lions in NH Part I and Part II. Mountain Lion report and as a biologist for the state that's a situation where if he said to me what did I see. Yes. We rely on readers like you to support the local, national, and international coverage on this website. Patrick Tate: In theory it's a passing ball of a court and it goes wherever the bottom Ball wants to go. So. I don't know if she still is. I can't tell you what you saw but it sounds like a mountain lion. Peter Biello: Ok weird question but do they make good pets. I just saw the head and the tail that was leaving. So if you were to ask me has a mountain lion ever passed through New Hampshire and been spotted by somebody who wasnt able to get hard evidence? Id personally be willing to say "probably, yes.". And so maybe before I go to you recommend I ask you Patrick Tate is the standard too high. I mean that so many of them are false sightings we. I think as Pat was saying you know 35 to 50 pounds on a male be reasonable range whereas mountain lions you're up to 100 110 maybe even 130 pounds on a big male. Have it reported down in the Keene area. HOLDERNESS, N.H. (AP) Two of the known mountain lions in New Hampshire have spent their 15 years in close proximity to humans. Fish and Game looked into the labs to have them confirm the information in the reports which the labs did not. And trying to figure out the little pieces to identify him so I bring up the names the differences but the appearances can be confusing for some. The panther, Fells concolor, is a beast of many names, most frequently referred to in New Hampshire history as catamount, but sometimes known locally as "Indian Devil" or "Carcajou", under which . On a dirt road. Peter Biello: Yeah well what do you think Pat is. Caller: Hey guys how you doing. The American Lion The Saber tooth Tiger and this was the one that survived. There have been several sightings of mountain lions in New Hampshire recently. So hey, just me shooting from the hip, maybe there are a couple mountain lions skulking about. They just end up in these places. And there's there's no evidence of that cat's movement in that entire you know 12 hundred miles stretch of its journey. They were able to do all that by genetics. Patrick Tate: No downward pressure at all I think actually Sean turned up and we found the evidence there a number of people would finally say finally we can put this debate to bed. Fear for others and those two polarizing opinions on the situation is what I believe brings out mystique and Sam you know I take kind of a long view on this. We send out DNA samples to the U.S. Forest Service Rocky Mountain Research Station. People have asked me about the genetics of eastern mountain lion. Let's talk to Mike in Webster. Patrick Tate: Well I've never seen an Easter cougar so I can't say when I've handled these 10 cougars and whatnot. Are there Mountain Lions in NH? NH Fish and Game relies on physical evidence to answer questions about the presence or absence of mountain lion in the state. You're on the air. The big cat has been extinct here since the mid-1800s. So. Sue Morse: The big cat really commands the utmost respect not so much fear but fascination. Some of the reports that I looked into that were actually on file at the local fish and game office were even from people who did not live locally. And a lot of people around the county airport have seen a lot of pilots coming in said they saw huge. For instance, Floridas wildlife officials have a similar ghost cat: the black panther. Today, their range stretches from the Yukon Territory in Canada along the western coast of the United States, all the way to the Southern Andes in Chile. Now Bobcat is a completely different species. Had great trees behind it beautiful ferns on the ground so it brought me down on the site and the ferns on the ground matched. You need you need either a really good photograph or you need you know fresh scat that can be sent to a lab out West that can they can be identified there. And it was you know 10 or 12 people saw it all at once. So I just throwing that out there it's interesting. However if if and when it does happen it takes up a lot of resources looking at that situation and identifying what's going on because when you start out you don't know it's a hoax. John. NHPR is nonprofit and independent. Patrick Tate: Same here in New Hampshire too. If it's just in the middle of a greenfield you can't prove anything. And so far we have not had any positive mark lion scats or any DNA. So that did it for me. nh.gov | privacy policy | accessibility policy Sam Evans-Brown: What he would have stopped as well I think is way way that the reason that mountain lion kept moving is because he wasn't finding anybody. Think you've seen a mountain lion? That's next time on one day. So for me as a person who's had the Bobcats right off my grits similar carries sticks to a bobcat The Long Tail obviously very different but those facial markings were overlapping for me. Peter Biello: Yeah some of what she was saying sounds like it would require getting pretty close or at least having a nice zoom lens right Sam like. And in fact in 2011 when it was announced that the eastern cougar was officially extinct the reason that announcement was made is because they said really that it never existed. So I just brought up the bobcat thing because the location is fascinating to me that that that location we have Bobcats existing but that location we have a mountain lion report because it's a developed area and which brings me back to earlier what I had said it's a bouncing ball. Sam Evans-Brown: And second the evidence required is is you know pretty pretty tough to gather. Join as a $8 per month sustainer and get our brand-new owl umbrella! They're just moving around freely. Caller: And then there's the Lily Pond Road and then there's a six foot tall fence. Patrick Tate: Okay. So I will just say this is a big reason why there have not been confirmed sightings I think is that the evidence required first. 44-H Links. Peter Biello: Give us a call 1 800 8 9 2 6 4 7 7 you can also send us an email exchange at an HP morgue. On Oct. 10, he gave a slide talk called "Wild Cats of New Hampshire," which included the bobcat and the lynx. Peter Biello: So Rick seems like you agree that the tail is a big giveaway whether or not it's a mountain lion Absolutely. A 140-pound male mountain lion was hit by a car and killed in 2011 in Milford, Connecticut. The western mountain lion lives in a more of a grassland open area now so to blend in with a very lighted situation here in the Northeast we are very shadowy dark situation because of the forest and our cats wear a darker brownish reddish color than what they were and they were also smaller than what the western mountain lion is. Fish and Game then deny the evidence. Peter Biello: Listeners give us a call if you have a question or a story of a sighting 1 800 8 9 2 6 4 7 7. It's you know I recognized their report and. And there are thousands of mountain lions killed every year legally through hunting, and there have been untold tens of thousands of mountain lions killed by hunters over the last hundred years, says Mark Elbroch, the Puma Program Director for Panthera, a global wild cat conservation organization, So even the folks who live with mountain lions still have a fancy and see something thats not there to me thats incredible.. www.wildlife.state.nh.us, Buy or Renew Your Saltwater Fishing License, Great Bay National Estuarine Research Reserve. Less than a year later I found a scat on the swamp range and I was working at the time with a fellow at the Michigan wildlife habitat Federation. Caller: So I've been telling this story for five years or so and very few people believe me. To date most of the pictures that have been sent in have been bobcats and other species Ive received pictures of house cats. WMUR uLocal: On this trail cam video, an unidentified feline is spotted. They absolutely do. Peter Biello: From New Hampshire Public Radio I'm Peter Biello in for Lark Knoy and this is the exchange. She is renowned for tracking. Caller: Hi. You know one of the the biggest questions I have about that is it points to how much we don't know and if in fact we don't know enough.